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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 14:38:26 GMT -5
Keiron, being new here, there are things that you probably don't understand. Example, you have entered the twilight zone. You have taken one of the two available sides in this never ending discussion we have here on LDOA. This is the way it's always been and the way it always will be. Lou used to have these debates himself when he was hatching the server, I bet, and now we join in. One of the things that Lou decided on long ago is that it would be better to add than remove content, because there is a shortage of it, at least for now. Kaedrin's ideas are very much of the type I have been pushing here for some time. They are NEAT!, of course. And, thanks for supporting them, Keiron. Notice how little they depend on items. Of course I know it's not easy to make content. Or else, I would have made lots of it already. Incidentally, I have made some spectacular areas. Thanks goes to L3DT for which I could not have done without. We could use those sample quests for the quest creator. Nerfing clerics is a waste. Lou doesn't want to have to manage the spell pool and worry about it every update. Also, you can't call clerics powerful, nerf them, then say that fighters need to catch up to them or say that fighters need to catch up to them, then nerf them. It's just contradictory. And you'll wind up with a powerful class anyway, except the new king of the hill will not need to buff. That is not what Lou has in mind. Notice that he places use restrictions on many items. The server is meant to be played against a buff timer. You're supposed to time your buffs to last between rest spots and to clear out areas for rest spots. You are meant to stop to pick up gold for potions/heal kits. Otherwise, you stack up on the regen gear and go RL shopping. Speaking of buff timers, those elemental weapon damage spells are all short duration spells. Only towards epic levels can you get prolonged use out of them. Even then, you have to manage them, unlike magic items. So, if you guys want magic items to catch up to clerics, then you want the items to have timers on them just like the spells do. How short do you want them? If you want timered items that will favor fighters over clerics then I suggest that the timer be fighter level based, or other sucky class, or even con based, to promote con builds. Canaith Lyrist and Knight of Teirdriel are custom classes so I have little to object about them. But, I must say that the inspiration for both classes were PnP classes which were not as widely useful. Canaith Lyrist's PnP counterpart needs Druid levels and get's both Druid and Bard spellcasting progression only. Knight of Teirdriel's PnP counterpart was Phantom Knight(Knight Phantom?) which is practically an EK. I don't remember if Forest Master advances cleric progression in PnP. In any case, sticking to PnP tends to be a problem solver. EDIT: A much easier way to deal with clerics, than combing throught their spell list, would be to give them an XP penalty. Say that it's a manifestation of their worship, the other half of this manifestation being the powers they receive from their Deity.
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Post by mammothtruk on Jul 19, 2009 16:23:39 GMT -5
you know what? Thats stupid...
Buff timer items?
Custom class bashing when you were the one to suggest changing the names so they werent bashed for their PnP counterparts?
Speaking Loudent2's mind? His very intent seems to flow through you?
Instead of proving your point and creating the items, monsters, quests, areas, and giving out ideas you turn to bashing others.
I mean dude.... If the point is you want nothing added to the server unless you approve it I think we all got that. And I have to tell you that I dont think thats how its going to work.
Clerics are OP by design. Other classes were given options in PnP to make up that gap like magical items, physical and mental methods, natural world options that rival magic, and PRCs that help contend with magic.
Gish are OP by design. Again the same logic applies here.
non caster classes need help. They have their options denied to them because its not PnP. And then the options that help level the playing field removed in LDoA. People are throwing ideas to use existing content slightly modified to make up for that like skill based resting in dungeons, buff removing traps that dont disarm on fire, all this in additional areas so that the core game you know and love doesnt have to change. These are to give leveling paths for other non caster classes.
I give you that the quest creation program is not designed for the public and Lou said that from the get go but wanted to give that option to us. Hes improved it. Im pushing that he name the numbers in the program instead of using numbers to represent names. Be a lot easier if it just said what it was going to say in the game and put in the right stuff behind the scenes. Hes got more stuff to change before the program gets user friendly so it might be a while before it happens. But the toolset is sitting there and using random terrian generation programs and calling that "areas" is misleading at best. They are bare, with no monsters, no quests, no items, and thats not an area that can be used. Try adding trees, some background "stuff", building monsters that fit into the area and are geared towards a level range, items for the loot buckets, and play testing.
Then come back and post something.
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Post by Kaedrin on Jul 19, 2009 16:34:27 GMT -5
Canaith Lyrist and Knight of Teirdriel are custom classes so I have little to object about them. But, I must say that the inspiration for both classes were PnP classes which were not as widely useful. Canaith Lyrist's PnP counterpart needs Druid levels and get's both Druid and Bard spellcasting progression only. Knight of Teirdriel's PnP counterpart was Phantom Knight(Knight Phantom?) which is practically an EK. I don't remember if Forest Master advances cleric progression in PnP. In any case, sticking to PnP tends to be a problem solver. Canaith Lyrist is a weakened form of Fochlucan Lyrist. It does NOT require Druid levels, only the druidic language (which can be gained a number of ways which includes taking a single level). It also advanced both an arcane and a divine caster. ANY arcane and ANY Divine. It's in the Complete Adventurer book if you care to double check what I'm saying. Forest Master allows ANY divine caster progression. It's in the Faiths and Pantheons book if you care to double check what I'm saying. KoT was going to be the Knight Phantom but the complaints were enough I turned it into a SP only class that could advance anything. PW Ops could pick and choose which progressions to turn on. "Sticking to PnP is a problem solver?" Seriously?
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Post by ghostguest2a on Jul 19, 2009 17:19:46 GMT -5
Since the OP was about preserver the Fighter, and specificly those in the post Epic levels, let ask this: How many of you that are makeing sugestions have taken a Fighter (pure meele non-caster build) past level 25, or even to level 29 or 30? And "trying" to and stoping at 24 or 25 does NOT count. Would be most helpfull on this topic if those that have ACTUALY reached 29 or 30 with a pure meele build would post their suggestions,..... AND all others not post.
Just my humbel opinion.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 18:03:33 GMT -5
I hear you MMT. Clerics and Gishes are OP, and GODAMMNIT why aren't fighters also OP? Yeah, that's the way to convince a server admin who doesn't hand out platemail at level 1 but makes you work for it all the way to level ~4 and doesn't let you have grenades and traps until later, that fighters and rogues need haste, regen, +7 items, etc. Yeah, buff timers on items is so stupid an idea that it's clerical/gishish, i.e. OP. I see you're a debate class champ. I wasn't speaking Lou's mind. I was just trying to pay attention to it and convey what I read. Nor was I bashing custom classes. I barely have anything to say about them. They are custom. The person who makes them decides at any moment what they are supposed to be. So, I really have no guidance to work with there. But, LDOA is a different story. Lou has expressed many times what he intends to achieve, more or less. So, I try to work with that. You guys might try that some time. Hey, at least he allows us to play clerics and gishes here, unmodded. If he really took an axe to clerics/gishes, you wouldn't have much to complain about, unless you wanted LDOA to be more like WoW or something. Check out my link and download my areas. The toolset will open them just fine because they are .are files, i.e. areas, in a .mod file. They may not be inhabited, but, that does not stop them from being areas. I'm sure someone like Keiron could make them look even better, but, the terrain is spectacular, thx to L3DT, and much better than some of the terrain on LDOA, or even on the vault. Oh, boohoo, make a big stink about that too so I can remind you of all the times that Lou said that area design is not his forte and that he would gladly accept an upgrade. Once again, praised be L3DT. It makes an amateur look like a pro. If Lou will just supply some sample quests then I'll be in a much better position to understand how his quest program works. My ideas are too ambitious to work with now. I need to simplify. Which is something that Lou does much better than me, apparently.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 18:35:43 GMT -5
Canaith Lyrist and Knight of Teirdriel are custom classes so I have little to object about them. But, I must say that the inspiration for both classes were PnP classes which were not as widely useful. Canaith Lyrist's PnP counterpart needs Druid levels and get's both Druid and Bard spellcasting progression only. Knight of Teirdriel's PnP counterpart was Phantom Knight(Knight Phantom?) which is practically an EK. I don't remember if Forest Master advances cleric progression in PnP. In any case, sticking to PnP tends to be a problem solver. Canaith Lyrist is a weakened form of Fochlucan Lyrist. It does NOT require Druid levels, only the druidic language (which can be gained a number of ways which includes taking a single level). It also advanced both an arcane and a divine caster. ANY arcane and ANY Divine. It's in the Complete Adventurer book if you care to double check what I'm saying. Forest Master allows ANY divine caster progression. It's in the Faiths and Pantheons book if you care to double check what I'm saying. KoT was going to be the Knight Phantom but the complaints were enough I turned it into a SP only class that could advance anything. PW Ops could pick and choose which progressions to turn on. "Sticking to PnP is a problem solver?" Seriously?There is no druidic language in NWN2, so the only way to qualify for Foluchan Lyrist would be to take a level of Druid, and a level of Bard, and 2 Rogue or SD levels. That makes it impossible to squeeze in other classes like cleric. But, it's a custom class and the goal of the class was not made explicit, other than this is it, it is what it is, so I had nothing to say. You implied your goal and reached it in one shot, so what was there to contribute? I'm satisified with the fact that it has it's own name. I'm certainly not uncomfortable with it's power. It does me no harm by being available. I am free to play or not play it as I see fit. So, what could I complain about? In NWN2, I would not allow clerics to take it. They have plenty of options. I would reserve it for Druids who lack options. But, I don't need this decision to be part of the K pack when I can make it on my own for myself regardless of what other people do. In PnP, the DM can control access to the Druidic language. Forest Master does allow any divine class as long as it can cast entangle, plant growth, and control plant. Those are not on the cleric spell lit AFAIK. I'm not even sure if they are in the plant domain. There is also the restriction of Silvanus as Deity. So, there is grounds to restrict them in NWN2, I think. In PnP they would definitely be barred from SL and war domain, unless for house rules. Yeah, KoT is funny. The complainers got an even worse deal. :lol:
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 18:48:33 GMT -5
Since the OP was about preserver the Fighter, and specificly those in the post Epic levels, let ask this: How many of you that are makeing sugestions have taken a Fighter (pure meele non-caster build) past level 25, or even to level 29 or 30? And "trying" to and stoping at 24 or 25 does NOT count. Would be most helpfull on this topic if those that have ACTUALY reached 29 or 30 with a pure meele build would post their suggestions,..... AND all others not post. Just my humbel opinion. My first toon here was a fgt12/brb02/FB06. I had a blast with it. It was a little grindy, but, I really enjoyed the basic premise of the server. At that time there was no epic content. Then I took up clerics and they were better still, especially since I was repeating the same grind. My highest level toon is level 24, Pang a clc/SL10/FB. There wasn't anything but Battle Field to level on once giants got sour, so I moved back to lower levels to try other things. I have a few other fighters, a fgt04/src01/rdd04/dwd10 going for fgt12/src01/rdd10/dwd10 and a fgt06/wm06 going for fgt12/WM07/DWD10/AK01, and some stuff that needs to be deleted. But, those are more for comparison purposes as I can play the same game better with a cleric combo. So, I rather that Lou focus on something entirely different that fits within the basic premise of the server than on something I can already do with what's available.
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Post by wettshoes on Jul 19, 2009 19:39:31 GMT -5
Since the OP was about preserver the Fighter, and specificly those in the post Epic levels, let ask this: How many of you that are makeing sugestions have taken a Fighter (pure meele non-caster build) past level 25, or even to level 29 or 30? And "trying" to and stoping at 24 or 25 does NOT count. Would be most helpfull on this topic if those that have ACTUALY reached 29 or 30 with a pure meele build would post their suggestions,..... AND all others not post. Just my humbel opinion. hehe so basically you sayin that only Beldar you and should have a say eh?? Not that I mind so much cause I usually agree with both of you I also think a quick way around this is to introduce some select weps/gear that somehow can only be used by melee (and attune when received of course). Maybe the script should check for if the PC has more then "X" number of caster (any caster class) levels it cant receive the quest that yields the item(s). Maybe it can be like a BGH quest where you chose from a few? This way, just 1 lvl of bard for a fighter/rdd build would still qualify but a PC with 7 lvl of wiz wouldn't etc . . . Is this even possible? My 3 cents
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 20:27:40 GMT -5
There is no druidic language in NWN2, so the only way to qualify for Foluchan Lyrist would be to take a level of Druid, and a level of Bard, and 2 Rogue or SD levels. That makes it impossible to squeeze in other classes like cleric. Ha, I did forget about air domain, but you still need to get the right skills soon enough.
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Post by mammothtruk on Jul 19, 2009 23:42:28 GMT -5
NTB its a line of reasoning that the server needs to cater to the lesser powers on the server. Just because Gish/Cleric/Battle Bard can do it doesnt mean is fine. These builds are OP and to make up for that FACT their needs to be options. Whats wrong with add more areas geared towards other classes strengths? scripts that read X levels of a base class and spawn a set of monsters that are fun for that class? Whats wrong with add more stuff to do?
Heres what Im going to do to help. Im going to open the toolset right now and pound out the basic layout of the last map I need. Then Im going to post it online and get the link the map man. He will look it over and make it feel real. He seens to be really good at that since LE and LO look amazing.
Then Im going to pack up monsters that are suppose to be int he dungeon and post them online. Im going to get the link to Loudent2 and Kieron. Im sure they can make sure they arent stupidly OP and add them in.
That will get the area up and running in a working fashion. I will have added something useful to the server.
Not sure about items as I still havent figured out how to make them useful in respect to existing items. I think Im pretty much looking at on par stuff in different places and lesser items that may or may not be used depending on your build, but that can be added later.
Then I will hammer out a few quests. I think I can do most of that by tomorrow night. I have most of the ground work completed already.
After its in the hands of the admins I will come back and see what you have done.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 20, 2009 0:59:43 GMT -5
*snip* Heres what Im going to do to help. Im going to open the toolset right now and pound out the basic layout of the last map I need. Then Im going to post it online and get the link the map man. He will look it over and make it feel real. He seens to be really good at that since LE and LO look amazing. That will get the area up and running in a working fashion. I will have added something useful to the server. *snip* Then I will hammer out a few quests. I think I can do most of that by tomorrow night. I have most of the ground work completed already. Looking forward to it. We love real help, that's for sure. Having some *ahem* toolset crash issues since updating to 1.23, but I should have that inline when I can operate on the folders and plugins. I am sure it won't conflict with anything for sprucing up your areas. Cheers.
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Post by galaxiid on Jul 20, 2009 1:18:45 GMT -5
NTB - you seem to struggle in providing constructive criticism to peoples ideas, and your involvement in this thread appears to hinder rather than help any development. In many cases the ideas put forward are not being pushed as suggestions to implement on the server, they are simply the ideas being generated when players are racking their brains about developing the melee classes survival and gameplay ability on the PW. Of the ideas I posted recently, there were quite a few I would dislike to see implemented here. I was going through the process of getting things down in writing that, I myself, and everyone else reading can examine, critque, brainstorm and refine. If an idea I'd posted was terrible, but it's contextual concept gave rise to a great idea from another poster then that's great! I have no issue with anybody disagreeing with something i post, its getting the constructive input that matters then refining a solution from all the information and ideas presented. This thread was created because it was felt that melee chars got an unfair disadvantage, you've had your say on this issue (numerous times): Right, then since clerics are the best build then the rest are the fun builds. Nothing to change then. Why bother complaining about clerics when they do what all the other builds do except faster? If all the builds are doing the same thing then why not play a cleric build and just get'r'done? If you have nothing further to add to the discussion but the same old lines then you have no reason to post anything else here, you're just wasting peoples time and taking the thread off topic with your pregnant doging and moaning
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Post by mammothtruk on Jul 20, 2009 1:20:35 GMT -5
man I just logged into the server.... LE is amazing. Little iffy because of my connection along the way but the work you did was very very nice.
Just opened up the toolset (1.22 still) and started working on the layout of the fourth area. Going to keep it a tiled area this time around as I dont really want to fool with creating "walls" that are suppose to be super thin to fit everything in the right place. Monsters will be tomorrow at some point.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 20, 2009 2:49:27 GMT -5
Hey gang.
I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread on down.
I feel that it has gone its course and is headed in a direction that is less than cordial. That's not to say that it has not been a spirited discussion, and I believe that there were some constructive things said.
What I am going to do is start a new thread with some bits and pieces from this thread. Please feel free to address the overall aspects of the new thread.
Cheers.
-Kieron
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