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Post by Beldar on Jul 18, 2009 12:33:56 GMT -5
@ cosper123: I wasn't saying that I thought clerics falling behind (in terms of melee damage) was a bad thing. They have a lot of other flexible abilities that make up for less melee damage. I will say that my high magic melee build will be victorious in PvP versus my high magic cleric build most of the time. Typically, a cleric victory requires making a concentration check and the fighter failing a save. My high magic fighter can inflict well over 1000 damage a round (over 2000 on average if you are not critical immune depending on AC). At some point in the damage spectrum, the fighter bonus feats allow him to eclipse the cleric's AB advantage. I don't doubt that their is probably a fighter/cleric hybrid that can beat my dual wielding dex fighter, but not many builds will (he is generally more vulnerable to builds that are able to catch him flat-footed, like HiPSers).
@ntb: I think Siege's point was more that the mage gets an unfair advantage relative to the fighter. His +6 constitution bonus goes a significant way towards making up the HP gap. Instead of getting only 40% of the fighter's HP he gets 70% which lessens that part of the tradeoff. Druids get this same advantage, btw (barkskin / tortoise shell). They actually get more HP than a fighter with the same constitution. Why should mages and druids get access to a constitution bonus that is unavailable to other characters?
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Post by siegelayer on Jul 18, 2009 14:12:24 GMT -5
I'd rather see more interesting challenges. I can get a +7 weapon in SP or other PWs. A mage with +6 con has 7HP/level. That's still short of a fighter. I never said a +7 weapon. And mages are supposed to have less hp! Y'all whine and quibble then and i'll keep building clerics, I guess. Clerics get 2d6 elements from runes, they get 1d6 fire buff and the 4th element too from weapon of energy, then another 1d6 divine for righteousness. that's 5d6 elemental while fighter types get 2d6. They also have more ab (when buffed) than is ever possible with any full bab fighter type. It can't be beat.
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Post by mammothtruk on Jul 18, 2009 14:38:27 GMT -5
Word up Siege word up
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 18, 2009 14:41:12 GMT -5
It is less, it's 7/11 ths of what a fighter with a +2 con item gets. And, mages do need HP. The idea that mages keep out of the way and cast only works in PnP. In NWN2 they're, more often then not, as mobbed as a fighter. But, unlike a fighter, they run out of firepower in a few rounds and the mob is still standing. They suck, druids too.
EDIT: I didn't accuse you Seige, of saying anything about a +7 weapon.
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Post by siegelayer on Jul 18, 2009 17:14:37 GMT -5
EDIT: I didn't accuse you Seige, of saying anything about a +7 weapon. My bad. Suck? lol My mage has 60 ac, mirror image, persistent displacement and tons of other goodies at lvl 23 and laughs at skellies. How can you beat that? Even some lvl 30 clerics might cringe. Mages probably have the best ac in the game. Incidentally, their ac is a result of the same kind of problem as the HP - they don't need AB, so they can use Imp. Combat Expert with impunity. Though, these problems have been around forever. Everyone has complained about the godly Clerics since day one. If nothing changes, then, I guess we'll make a bunch of Clerics on the server and then move on when we've exhuasted all of our cleric build ideas. If you'll excuse me, I guess i'll have to plan a Cleric-based rogue, now.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 18, 2009 20:01:46 GMT -5
EDIT: I didn't accuse you Seige, of saying anything about a +7 weapon. My bad. Suck? lol My mage has 60 ac, mirror image, persistent displacement and tons of other goodies at lvl 23 and laughs at skellies. How can you beat that? Even some lvl 30 clerics might cringe. Mages probably have the best ac in the game. Incidentally, their ac is a result of the same kind of problem as the HP - they don't need AB, so they can use Imp. Combat Expert with impunity. Though, these problems have been around forever. Everyone has complained about the godly Clerics since day one. If nothing changes, then, I guess we'll make a bunch of Clerics on the server and then move on when we've exhuasted all of our cleric build ideas. If you'll excuse me, I guess i'll have to plan a Cleric-based rogue, now. It takes a mage a million rest/buff cycles just to get to level 10, from fast start. That sucks. Why bother complaining about clerics when they do what all the other builds do except faster? If all the builds are doing the same thing then why not play a cleric build and just get'r'done?
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Post by Kieron on Jul 18, 2009 21:15:08 GMT -5
Why bother complaining about clerics when they do what all the other builds do except faster? If all the builds are doing the same thing then why not play a cleric build and just get'r'done? Because its bloody boring for some people. Not everyone needs to have the best build - some people actually make builds for the fun of it and see how they do. Pretty interesting stuff, really.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 18, 2009 21:36:56 GMT -5
Why bother complaining about clerics when they do what all the other builds do except faster? If all the builds are doing the same thing then why not play a cleric build and just get'r'done? Because its bloody boring for some people. Not everyone needs to have the best build - some people actually make builds for the fun of it and see how they do. Pretty interesting stuff, really. Right, then since clerics are the best build then the rest are the fun builds. Nothing to change then.
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Post by galaxiid on Jul 18, 2009 22:03:18 GMT -5
To provide equality - options:
1) Increasing the magic level of the server, allowing fighters to compete with caster buffing through equipment.
2) Adding items of similar powers that occupy different slots, allowing fighters more customisation of equipment eg. headband of con+6, or more runes that allow customisation
3) Adding powerful items sepecifically designed for and usable by warriors - though UMD starts to become an issue
4) Dropping the AB of attackers so the difference becomes neglible
5) Developing feats only obtainable by fighters
6) Reducing the spellcasting power of casters (?!! reduced duration?)
7) Developing areas that are more suited to fighters , eg. enemies get bane vs clerics on weapons etc
8) Developing areas less suited to caster, eg. heavy dispelling
9) others..
Essentially casters are more powerful when buffed than melee and more adaptable than melee. If you are trying to develop equality across the classes you either have to increase melee ability or decrease caster ability. The options are those I could think of, add to them!
In my opinion dispelling is the most effective way to go given what i have experienced (all be it briefly) on the server. Most of the combat is melee mob orientated, and including a dispelling caster amongst them every so often, or dispel traps would seem to both give the PW some extra depth and improve equality.
I also feel that increasing the variation of equipment available (not neccessarily the power of eqiupment) can only be a good thing. In all my RPG experience item acquisition was always the greatest fun. Item addition also allows for small scale content addition:
'This helm was taken from the leader of the small party of dwarves mining the caverns of the middle outpost well. His clerical father had blessed it to provide some abilities his more physically minded son could not provide for himself.
Increases defenders ability check vs knockdown by 4 Only usuable by fighter'
I don't want to try to push changing the nature of the server, or changing storylines - don't start speeling about why there should never be dwarven miners in the the well. I'm just putting in my two cents about possible ways equality could be developed
EDIT - Additions
10) Reduce physical DR of enemies in favour of elemetal DR - this would probably have some influence on dexers also
11) Incorporate Mag DR on enemies
12) Blindsight/True Seeing enemies
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Post by Kieron on Jul 19, 2009 1:31:34 GMT -5
I don't want to try to push changing the nature of the server, or changing storylines - don't start speeling about why there should never be dwarven miners in the the well. I'm just putting in my two cents about possible ways equality could be developed Great post. Nerfing mage spells makes me sick to my stomach. All other suggestions are very viable. Some karma from me coming your way, for sure, mate.
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Post by mammothtruk on Jul 19, 2009 2:45:57 GMT -5
galaxiid gives some good ideas I think
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 19, 2009 6:25:11 GMT -5
I just hear you guys rehashing the same old ideas found in every other NWN1 and NWN2 module and WoW, Diablo II, etc. And, it'll just kill the server as I see it. I know you guys like to twink and just get past the lower levels and you want more epic level content more than lower level content. So, put that all together and what does that mean? You guys are essentially pushing for MotB.
I think Lou has something unique or unique-ish here that just needs more attention.
The high magic stuff should be pushed off beyond level 30 as a psuedo-level system. You would need XP in order to get +enhancement. Each +enhance or so would be another level.
Low levels just need more quests to break up the monotony of grinding the same 5 dungeons fifty billion times each, and more item types need to be made useful such as traps, grenades, potions, etc.
The only way I see to have lots of magic to keep people busy with and not overwhelm the lower levels with it is to avoid general enchantment and go with per race and damage type stuff, etc. This way you can have a ton of gear to keep yourself occupied with but you have to switch it out for particular monsters. And, the monsters will have to have other attack types to defend against so you can chase after gear to defend against that and not(edit) be able to concentrate on offense alone as you would do in 99% of all other modules and games. Defense is worth more than offense is one of LDOA's themes, at least at the lower levels. Plus, more fireworks.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 19, 2009 11:55:48 GMT -5
This isn't about "twinking" anything NTB. ...and no one is pushing for anything MotBish. What people are asking for is for LDoA to be multidimensional. It's just not. There's a mold of a PC that works here. People are looking for more diversity.
In order to make that happen, there isn't just one thing. Everything to you is so simple, and easy, blah, blah, blah. Tell, you what. Get on that quest creator, rock out some of these quests that you are talking about; and show us how easy it is...
Seriously. You want to keep things the same, but you insist the changes people are asking for are simple and easy if we do this and that. Get to it, mate. Because to many of us it's just not that simple and requires touches here and there to get it right.
I love statements like this:
Ok. You think so? Get on it. Make some new areas, and while you are at it, go ahead and figure out ways to make traps, grenades, potions, etc., more useful.
See - that's not a solution. That's just saying something that doesn't hold a lot of *actual* gameplay merit. Things are so simple when you can just say what one thinks the overall solution is. Makes me laugh.
The cold harsh truth is that we need higher magic rogue-ish type items. Yes, we do need more areas that are diverse for multi platforms of PC builds. I also believe that clerics could be knocked down a peg or two. It's not to "make all classes the same." It's to insist upon diversity. What will people do if I make a dungeon with traps that do not disarm on fire? What if you HAVE to have a rogue to truly disarm them to get past? Will people not go there? What if I make doors in the golem dungeon locked, not bashable, and trapped where you must have a rogue to get by? Then what?
Point of the thread is to make the pure melee class more viable here. I think the pure melee class is plenty viable. Is it harder to play than a cleric? Sure! But Classes are not always going to be the same difficulty across the board to play in a module or PW. That's the point.
I do think NTB has a point in saying that we shouldn't litter the server with high magic items, and I agree with that. But a few select types need to be put in, for starters, at least.
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Post by Kaedrin on Jul 19, 2009 12:16:48 GMT -5
I think there are ways to promote non-cleric/non-arcanes without using items as well. Dungeons could require a certain hide and/or survival to rest in them. Several anti-magic (dispel) traps and creatures could be used to deplete the buff crazy which wouldn't affect non-casters.
There could be specific random encounters with spirit -based magic-eaters (drawn to beings wrapped in heavy magic) that haunt several locations. Such as magic overuse is beginning to strain the weave and the creatures help to balance it.
Weapon buff spells (elemental damage ones) can be limited to only one temporary element boost per weapon (perhaps two for rangers/paladins/bards). I'm personally not a fan of stacking 5d6 elemental damage from spells on a single weapon but that's allowed in pnp.
Spellcasting progression can be removed from prestige classes (specifically canaith lyric, knight of tierdrial, and forest master) for classes such as cleric. If I recall correctly there were members of this thread who asked for them when I didn't originally have them in.
There could be alternate "special areas" that specifically counter types of spells, such as enchantments on a dungeon that strips spells with concealment or energy types (no resists, weapon buffs, damage spells of a specific element).
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Post by Kieron on Jul 19, 2009 12:24:30 GMT -5
Dang, now that is a good post, K. Those are some really good ideas. Especially the first one. I think scripts that utilize skills are a key here, to making other classes relevant. Nicely said. Now just give me a Jedi class, and all will be right with the world.
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