Fighter preserve (save the endangered fighter!)

[nicethugbert]

Jul 17, 2009 0:46:06 GMT -5 Loudent2 said:

Kieron,

In the past I've tried to avoid creating areas catering to specific classes but I don't have a philisophical objection to it, just didn;t have the time.

What I'd love to see is a series of areas tied to specific classes. Each requiring the special skills those classes bring to the table and each tied with a class specific achievement quest. That would be pretty cool. Starting with rogue would work as well.

+1

This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...............>>>>>> items.

All those items that Keiron mentioned do nothing but make all the classes the same which is a waste of resources. You don't need 50 classes to do the same thing level after level after level ....

[shoujo]

Couple thoughts...

High SR - Seems awfully unnecessary because it hurts nukers, not battlecasters.

Fighter mobs - IMO the biggest problem is mob AB. Fighter-types just can't get the AC to survive vs the truly nasty stuff.

Shortsword/kukri/dagger - If I had a non-SL cleric or even a fighter type of some kind, I'd seriously consider using it. The +7 means it frees up enhancement runes for more AC gear, gets you higher AB, and the average *base* damage from the +7 alone would make it on par or better than a d8 weapon. Keen frees up a feat too and it gets 2d6 acid damage. Barring extreme luck farming the battle field, that weapon is as good as it gets.

Amulet - I wouldn't touch it. No natural AC = suck. It's not like there are many good bracers. Only ones that come to mind are the +6 dex and the +4 AC ones.

Armor - Cat's grace is a waste of an item property. Just use +6 dex bracers. Leather armor is kinda iffy too. Mithral chain doesn't leave you as screwed when flat footed and it gets you 10 AC for less dex.

Rogues - I don't think you really can. The most I'd do if I wanted to farm rogue zones is go with a 1 rogue + able learner combo. That gets you just about everything you'd want from a rogue (access to a better skill list) without all of the combat suck.

[Kieron]

Hang on a long second, here folks.

The item examples were nothing but examples. No more than about 2 seconds of typing went into the thought of each letter of item properties for those.

Let's all talk solutions instead of pointing out problems from ideas. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. If we change nothing, nothing will change. If we add nothing, nothing will change. If we do nothing different in any aspect, nothing will change.

More poerful items are needed for rogue-type builds. That is one of the only ways to make them more relevant. Adding areas for class specifics is great, but you can't make a whole PC based on 1-2 areas. With so many creatures here immune to critical hits, sneak attacks, and many with spell immunity, you nix almost every build but divine type builds. There needs to be more versatility. Simple as that.

There's a dozen or more things on my plate to build for this world. Realistically, I can't build several zones just for rogues, now can I? Would I like to? Sure. Is it feasible, in a reasonable and timely fashion? Not really, no. There has to be more than just one aspect for a solution to a problem that spans multiple classes. I am telling you now that one of these aspects is more unique, rare, and class specific items that offer a higher level of power.

I don't believe that it makes all classes the same. I just don't agree with that. You guys say that this isn't a high magic world? What are you people smoking? This is a very high magic world. I can have a +3 sword with 1d6 ele damage at level 6 here. ...and sometimes earlier if I get some help. That is high magic, sorry to tell ya. LDoA is already in the action category. Whether you believe it or not, it is in the high magic category. I don't play a lot of Action servers. In fact, this is the only one I play. I've tried others, and this is the only one where I feel that items, gold, and XP mean something. Meaning, you have to work for what you get. Which is nice. But - it's still a higher level of magic here than a large percentage of PW's out there. Wizard spells are not nerfed, just fixed, and magical items in general are pretty easy to come by / make / etc. When you can make a +2 large shield almost out of the gate, you know you are high magic. Gang, I've got a level 19 PC with +5 gloves, 1d8 Negative, 1d6 fire, 1d6 Acid. Not high magic? In what realm is a +5, 3-20 ele (type) dmg not a high magic item? There's not a poll on the Vault that would put that in the low-med magic category. What line are we trying to draw here?

Here's what I see all too often since playing here:

New Player A comes here. A makes 1-5 PCs, plays here for a few months, leaves. Maybe we catch 1 in 4 or 5 players that sticks around for a long duration. Regardless, we lose more than 75% of the players that try out LDoA. Why? There are a few reasons, for sure, but a glaring one is lack of versatility. If it wasn't such a glaring issue, then we wouldn't have multiple players bringing it up all the time. Do other servers have this issue? You better believe it, though because of the same, and different reasons.

What is the solution? Well, this is what I am trying to come up with. Ideas for a solution. Creating areas solely for classes is great, and something I can do, and something that will help. It's not the solution, however.

I don't want to bash this server. I love it. I am committed to making this place better than it is. It is a great place to play, but everywhere can use improvements. I just want to offer a playability for a wider variefty of classes and to give players more reason to stick around longer and call LDoA their home.

[Kaedrin]

SoZ added a variety of new "special feats" that allow sneak attack to be used (at half value) against sneak immune creatures. Each feat caters to a specific creature type. All of these feats CAN be added to the item property system.

My Skullclan Hunter is the perfect example of this. It's a class that freely grants the Death's Ruin ability for any weapon the hunter equips (giving it the ability to sneak attack undead). You still can't crit, but you do get part of your sneak attack dice.

It would be a simple matter to add the rest (elementals, not sure what the others were) to the item props allowing weapons to be created that have the ability to target a specific creature type much like a bane weapon.

I know that there are also items in the sourcebooks that boost the sneak dice of the wielder similar to the amulets that boost blast dice for warlocks. Bards also have items (a chest armor) that boosts their Inspiration bonuses. This just needs a simple system to hook my code for determining sneak dice, adding the extra dice, and adding that new feat to the player's hide. I'm doing this for one of the Ranger spells actually (Hunter's Eye or something like that).

[Beldar]

LDOA is not a high magic world. I could believe it is moderate magic. I play on high magic worlds. On one, I have +10 weapons with 20d6 of elemental damage. On another, I have +8 weapons with 6d12 weapons. I still encounter zones on those worlds that are too difficult to solo. With gear on that scale, my melee builds might actually stand a chance in Mirh. I am not saying that I think that is the sort of gear we should have here. I am just clarifying what a high magic world is. Maybe those are very high magic worlds to some? The difference is semantic. My point is this world is not at the top end of the spectrum in terms of the level of magic available.

I agree completely with the following statement:

Realistically, I can't build several zones just for rogues, now can I? Would I like to? Sure. Is it feasible, in a reasonable and timely fashion? Not really, no. There has to be more than just one aspect for a solution to a problem that spans multiple classes. I am telling you now that one of these aspects is more unique, rare, and class specific items that offer a higher level of power.

Here is something else to consider. We could consider turning on item level restrictions. This feature can help smooth the balance of play across the server. Some of us (me for example) load our new characters up with the best gear available on the server. This makes the initial levels quite easy (basically until the monsters catch up to our uber-gear). If we had to wait till higher levels to use the gear, then lower level areas would not need to be so quite so daunting to new players. I am sure newer players to the server wonder how my characters have all of that spectacular gear at level 7. I know that I struggled to do the initial quests with my first character and didn't complete them until I was level 9 (playing a fighter build of a sort that probably has the easiest time with those quests and lack luster gear).

As far as Kieron's new player trying a little and then leaving, I suspect that he is right about the lack of versatility. Each character does the exact same quests, farms the same loot, and grinds the same monsters (my most recent level 30 killed thousands of golems to get there, both pre- and post- epic). Only the truly mentally ill can do that over and over again before the tedium wears on them.

I think everyone posting on this thread is trying to offer suggestions for improving it. We might not agree on the means, but in my estimation the critiques have been constructive. For the most part, I agree with NTB - a diverse world that encouraged different build forms to see different content would be ideal. Achieving those aims, however, will require a great deal of work. In the short term, improved gear would allow builds that are not currently viable to experience the content that does exist. I guess I should clarify that I am measuring viability by the ability to reach level 30 without leaching XP from others. My perception is that more builds fall in the not viable category of that definition than in the viable category currently.

[shoujo]

Sorry to bash your item examples, but two were kinda blech and one was a good weapon regardless of class and would've been used by non-rogues so I figured slapping them down before they entered production would be a time saver

Here is something else to consider. We could consider turning on item level restrictions. This feature can help smooth the balance of play across the server.

Hm, I actually think balance is fine until the epic stage. That's right about where fighters can still function without sucking and if you look at the gear, it makes perfect sense since the AC gear available more or less keeps up with the AB of the mobs. At epic though, creatures continue to gain AB, but there's nothing higher than +5 AC stuff.

I don't think the low level areas are exactly daunting. Level 9 makes perfect sense for the initial quests considering they're intended for a group of 6-7s or something like that. Far as I know they haven't been tweaked to account for twinking either.

My first toon here that I played to level 15 was an untwinked fighter/bard/RDD without K's goodies and she did fine with just the expertise line of feats. All I did was farm each boss repeatedly till I had all the best gear possible at a given stage before advancing.

[nicethugbert]

[00] I know the items were quick examples, but, my point still stands, regardless.

[01] As Beldar showed, this is a low magic world relative to others. It just has a unique item distribution scheme.

[02] And, uniqueness counts, a lot. Lou has something different, if not special, here. I'm happy that he is so accepting of other people's content. But, I hope they will respect what Lou has started, augment that, and not repeat what's on every other server.

[03] Lou has a basic system that runs great for a number of levels if not all the way to 30. Unfortunately, I think in implementation it is a bit stretched and could use some filling in. Yes, I try to encourage him to make all area auto-scaling. But, the reasoning behind that is to take the pressure off of not having content for each level and to generate observable player behavior that he can use. With that in place, he can add things that make a difference and not have to waste as much time redoing entire areas, I hope. It's much easier to tweak stuff than to make a total redo. And, I notice that Lou likes small elegant solutions with lots of mileage.

[04] I suggest focusing on one class at a time, preferably something neglected. Make a path for them from level 1 to 30. Forget about all the other classes. Forget items. Just make an action story that fits that class, a game for that class, that makes playing that class enjoyable and unique. After that is done and we have broken it fifty billion times with every powerbuild in the book, or as we do, tweak it, add some curveballs to the interlopers, sour the milk. Get the basics down first then fill in. Focus on class specific action and story. Forget great big prizes, it'll only draw more farmers. As you weed out the interlopers, add better items. Otherwise, you are waiting for perfection to solve a tough problem for you which is something everybody in NWN2 is still doing with no success to show for it.

If an idea turns out to not work for levels 1 tp 30, but for levels 6 to 13, let's say, then implement another idea to cover level 1-5, or overlap, then another to go beyond 13. Rinse and repeat.

Doing this for rogues has the advantage in that you can trap or lock the jeebus out of their areas and make the trap disarm level specific so rogue dippers cannot milk/farm the area.

But, for any area, you can always add a special monster to toughen things up just right. Just look at the AFK Demon.

[04] Right now, the server has a small following that has gotten this far on less content than we expect to have. We are the testers. Don't worry if we play test the new areas fifty billion times before it's done. We're already used to that. Save the perfection for the flighty throngs to be captured later as NWN2 PWs become more popular with the auto downloader'n'stuff.

[05] I don't care much for ILR. I don't like twinking, so I don't do it. It doesn't matter to me so much if others do. It makes partying a little tricky sometimes, but, I haven't seen many problems yet. It could be a problem as areas are broken in and tweaked. Is it a server switch or can it be done per area?

[06] My first toon here that I played to level ~19 was an untwinked fighter/barb/FB without K's goodies and he too did fine, mostly solo, with just the expertise and power attack line of feats. Just like Shoujo, all I did was farm XP to get to the point where I could farm the bosses for the best gear possible at a given stage before advancing. But, I couldn't do it again. It's luster has worn off because of all the grind involved. Having to do the same three areas 3 or 4 times each over and over again with every toon is a killer. I still enjoy the basic system, I just want it to be finer grained. It's great how Lou has managed to turn a lowly mithril full plate into a valuable item. I wish the same would happen to potions, scrolls, alchemical items, etc.

[Kieron]

NTB,

I just don't know what to say about your last post.

It's so easy to say things on a forum vs. being the one that has to create / implement them.

Creating a story for a rogue PC on a PW? Do you realize how much time something like that takes for ONE type of build? I am sorry, but that is not even remotely something I would care to tackle. Be my guest to draw that up, design the areas, and implement it.

Perhaps I just need to stick to DMing and area design, as it seems my ideas for this server are not in line with what the vets here want it to stay like.

[phariss]

Jul 17, 2009 10:31:07 GMT -5 Kieron said:

New Player A comes here. A makes 1-5 PCs, plays here for a few months, leaves. Maybe we catch 1 in 4 or 5 players that sticks around for a long duration. Regardless, we lose more than 75% of the players that try out LDoA.

I d/l'd the patch without thinking of the ramifications, I am waiting for LdoA to go 1.23 then i will be back, I really like the low magic realm we have here and as one who has yet to get a PC past level 15 i can't really see the problems your talking about, But to re-iterate this is a low magic world i went back to RoT (realms of trinity) I have a level 12 (ranger 10 EA 2) with 8 regen per round perma haste 43 ac i forget its ab....... all with grinding gold to "buy" modifications for useless loot. I mean they sell gloves with no bonuses no anything with the intent of you modifying them to hi-heaven. I don't hate it there but i do prefer it here and i will be one of you 1 in 4 or 5 when i can.

On a side note i am full of usless ideas and time on my hands if someone had a good tutorial on how to use the "quest system" mebe i can be of service? Perhaps just getting a few criteria or a form to fill out i could load you up with some quests. i plan on messing around with the "toolset" this afternoon/ evening until i get overwelmed. dont get frustrated any of you this is the best Pw i have found so far and if i wasnt stoopid i would be playing it right now lol

[nicethugbert]

I'm sure we'll all gladly accept what you do best and enjoy doing, Kieron. I don't think any of us are opposed to general use areas. But, the issue was raised about the difficulty, if not impossibility, in doing that as we all seem to agree that it has not worked, on any server.

I don't understand why a class specific story is tougher than a general one. I thought I was proposing the easiest way to make areas, regardless of class or group. Wouldn't it be more difficult to have to get all the details right the first time?

[mammothtruk]

heres an idea... if thats still the point of the thread? Because I mean we could keep running down the same hallway again slamming our faces on doors because everyone opened theirs without respect to everyone else. Another thread falling off the tracks and killed everyone on board.

revamp the crafting system to take advantage of the SoZ system. instead of making end product items they could be runes to be in line with the current reward system. And they could be race, energy type, skill specific runes. Throw is hooking Kaedrin's system to read sneak dice you could have race specific sneak dice runes. Throw in the bard inspiration rune and maybe some elemental resistance runes. Make some of the components to make these runes rewards from quests so you can make a limited amount of them. Seems like there is a quest creation program for LDoA that someone keeps talking about using but still hasnt. You could easily put the conversations together for the class specific quests and fit them into every area for the suggested crafting upgrade.

Low/med magic server? Im a have to go with the DM here. This is med/high at very least. leaning on the high side heavy. With the quest reward armors with +2-4, weapon rewards with properties not found anywhere else on the server and the rune system you can have two +4 weapons with +4 armor and +3 shield. both weapons can be made to have 1 elemental damage bonus that vary so you can always damage resistant creatures. If you want to argue that point I throw all the buffs that are unrestricted and last for 1h/level + buff rod that casts them all for you.

the argument bout making all the classes the same? I cant break that up a bit too... how about everyone gunning for the same stats? how you get there is different but everyone is looking at the damage per second, % hit chance, % your missed, and XP per hour. How is that not the common thread that makes everyone playing the same? So why should one play style be favored over another? leveling the playing field doesnt seem all that out of whack to me. All characters are the same in respect to the goal of leveling.

Diversifying the server is a good plan. I suggest that there be an onenter instance script written. Gear the monsters better towards the person entering. average HP, AC, classes. script would take some doing and tweaking, but would help to make everyone feel like they can make headway. Say it detects a caster class so it throws more disjunction traps down. It also detects a fighter so it throws in some mid AC high HP monsters. It detects a rogue in the party so it spawns in some casters with dex based AC and reflex spell lists. Everyone gets something that is challenging but has its weakness.

and with the release of 1.23 that can instance an area per person entering it instead of locking people out of the instance because someones in it opens a world of use for this kind of scripting. Sure its a lot of work, but the payoff to customize a dungeon based on the soloing character OR the mixed party would have huge payoffs all around. And I know Ive raided that Loudent2 instance a great deal of times in the past for various drops, but I think given enough suggestions and time those drops will come.

AND.... yes there is one more thing for me to soapbox here... Remember way back when I was pushing for that endgame business with forts, armies, and upgrading? Remember how I said that it would give lv30s something to strive for even after the levels stop? I think your all there and looking around wondering what to do next. Feel that? its me laughing til it hurts.

[Loudent2]

Ok, we have some vigourous debate. Healthy IMO. I'll add that my vacation is over and the inital dirge of work is past so you'll likely see more updates now.

Couple of things I would like to throw out:

1) Items: I think Kieron had the right idea he is just limited by what the toolset gives us. It is these limitations that confounded me for the longest time. Basically every property is a basic improvement but, while useful, it's not terribly fun or interesting. I don't know about you guys but gettinga +X item is "nice" but getting a +X-1 weapon with special "on use/hit/swing" text is much funner.

Fortunately I believe I have a solution to that problem (Essentially I just bypass virtuall all standard item properites and script it all) that is also keeping in line with how the server likes to do items (i.e. updating your current set with occasional replacement of the base item). This is the adornment system that I was working on back before my vacation.

Kieron, remind me to fill you in on this next time we chat. I'm sure you can come up with some nifty, outside-the-box properties for items.

2) Adjusting mob strength based in entering player's items/build.

This is fraught with more issues than you might think. Anywhere from game lagging scripts (log into mirh lately?) to the inability of preventing someone from switching gear after they enter. I would much prefer giving the option to the players themselves. I could add a stone conversation option that allowed the leader to select "modes" easy, normal, tough(1-5), heroic(1-5) and epic (1-5). Rewards would be slightly better as would XP for higher difficulties.

3) Class specific areas/quests

Some of the most rewarding RPG and CRPG gaming has been class specific quests. I recognize that creating that is daunting to say the least but that's no reason not to strive. Fortunately it' doesn't have to be that time consuming. We have hte ability to create placables, placed effects, mobs, sounds, lights etc etc via script in game and we have a system in place that knows that such and such should only spawn when someone in the harea has the quest for it (note the difference between the collector's daughter and later quests. If I did that quest today she'd only show up when you had the quest for her instead of that conversation piece (like she wouldh't want to be rescued just because her father didn't send you !)

We could easily make "Epic storyline" objects that works like a lot of other objects in the world in that they are a repository of information and behavior that can drive the spawning of entire areas. I'm not saying this is ready to be rolled out but it can be done. Once the framework is in place creating storylines would be just like creating quests.

4) Level Capped character activity

Once level progression stops and max gear is gained a lot of incentive is lost. The goal is to add some other sort of progression be it faction, status, fame, deeds and the like. I have a random dungeon/quest system scripted up but it lacks the areas it needs to be truly interesting. NTB has a "Lost Island" set up for me but I haven't had a chance to even look at it yet (sorry NTB!). Basically I'm the bottleneck. Now that we have Kieron onboard we might see me focus more on getting things to work.

I'll admit I have selfish motives in determining what I work on. I look for the part that's fun for me and leave some things half done. I promised (before my vacation) to go back and finish up those pieces that need finishing. I'm going to track down that thread and perhaps me and Kieron can work out a plan to divvy up the work and "get'er done".

On the plus side the new quest system is near done (just a bug or two to work out) and this opens up a vast array of possibilities for quests.

anyway sorry for the wall of rambling text and I apologize if I forgot to address any of the major points brought up here

[siegelayer]

I was just thinking about the dual-wielders myself. It's a shame that they have to spread their runes so much. The point of two weapons is to do more dmg but they have less dmg per hit due to spreading of the runes, as well as lower ab, and no shield. Would it be feasible to allow 2 more elemental runes for dual-wielders and limit weapons to only hold 2 runes, max? This could also allow a player to have a backup up weapon with enhancement and elemental dmg, as well, as has been mentioned by someone before. Maybe even have a bow that's usable in addition to your sword, for instance.

I also, (though I hate to gimp my mages) keep harping on the fact that, due to having a natural AC buff, a mage effectively has 6 more constitution (wears +6 con ammy instead of nat ac ammy) than a non-mage and that's just not right at all. Maybe fighter types could use 6 more con of some sort?

[cosper123]

Jul 16, 2009 19:49:01 GMT -5 Beldar said:

If the weapons are powerful enough, the clerics fall behind. Greater magic weapon doesn't stack with the enchantment on the weapon. One of the main ways that casters get ahead here is their ability to "temporarily" (long duration) enchant their own weapons. With the runes currently available, you can only make a single +5 item (typically armor for a fighter). The caster can make a +5 shield and use greater magic weapon and magical vestment to make +5 armor and weapons. With large amounts of elemental damage, the melee specialists start to do more damage than clerics due to feats like the weapon focus line and weapon master feats.

I disagree, the whole point is to put them on as equal footing as possible. As is I'd still take a Cleric/fighter hybrid over the weapon Kieron mentioned on a pure fighter any day of the week. A melee specialist SHOULD do more damage, and a Cleric will still be more flexible and able to deal with much more.

Clerics are just too powerful....ESP with K's pack and the super domains now avail. Plus there's a good amount of PRCs that fit Cleric hybrid builds so well. This is why a majority of the power builds on this server are Cleric based.

They really could stand to be knocked down a notch, I don't think the weapon that Kieron mentioned would suddenly make Cleric builds fall behind at all.

[nicethugbert]

I'd rather see more interesting challenges. I can get a +7 weapon in SP or other PWs.

A mage with +6 con has 7HP/level. That's still short of a fighter.