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Post by klopfenstein on Jul 16, 2009 14:31:14 GMT -5
Have you ever noticed that things in this world are, well, UBER, as the Germans would say. The creatures are so tough that unless you are an super twinked character you won't be surviving very easily at higher levels on this server with a straight fighter (Never mind a straight THIEF, which you would be crazy to try and play here.) Let me first state that I have no love for fighters in D&D and that I think they were unbalanced all the way up through 3.5 rules. (Best hp, best, AC, best overall survivability and in most encounters, the best DPS. (With a two handed weapon, under the old double your STR mod rules GAH! Even with 1.5 STR GAH!) Anyway, bottom line, NOT a fighter lover. That in mind, I think perhaps we need a dungeon geared to higher level fighters. One where the creatures are not so UBER. But how? All the buffers will want to come play there too, right? Not necessarily. You see, this dungeon is filled with Mordicanes disjunction traps. A buff class would not get very far in here unless they are a high level thief as well, or if they have one with them to clear the way. Sure, it doesn't prohibit casters from coming in. They could recast their buffs after every trap- till they run out of spells and find its not easy to find a place to rest This area does make the area less appealing to them, as well as creating a need/use for skills like disarm trap, and thieves in general. This world desperately needs some thief love. It would not be a hard thing to create. I bet I could make it. I wonder if I made an area, would they consider adding it to the server? (How does this work anyway?) Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated, I value your input. Klopfenstein
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 16, 2009 15:30:26 GMT -5
Sounds NEAT! I think it would be appropriate for Mirj. But, we would probably need another area for the people who can't make it in Mirj and can't find some fighters to hookup with.
Incidentally, Kaedrin is working on some anti magic spells. Once that comes out, Lou will have those tools to get this done with more flexibility.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 16, 2009 16:14:26 GMT -5
Once I complete a few more reskins, I have plans for a dungeon that can scale from level 15-30 (hopefully), and is geared for anything of appropriate level. Things you will find in this dungeon: - Dispel traps, disjunction traps
- Dispelling mages, disjunction casting mages
- Creatures that are NOT immune to critical hits
- High SR creatures
- No creatures with DR (dex based and rogue types will like this!)
- Traps, traps, traps, puzzles, and more traps (Do not enter without rogue levels or with a very good rogue on hand)
Sadly, this place cannot be made until I have made a few places like it on a lower level scale. Please be patient with us, and keep in mind that there are only like 2-3 people making content for LDoA currently. ...and remember, all help is more than welcome. -Kieron
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Post by Beldar on Jul 16, 2009 16:58:48 GMT -5
I think, in theory, the Enchanted Lands is supposed to work like this. The Occulus have a super disjunction ability that removes all of your buffs without a save. The problem with the theory is that the Occulus have a bunch of other super powers that make them dangerous for everyone. They can put you out of commission by turning you into stone or hitting you with save or die. These abilities are often difficult for a fighter to survive (a 5% chance of dying, i.e. 1 in 20 on a save, is too much to risk when you have to kill hundreds in order to reach the next level).
I did manage to level a melee non-buffer to 30 in enchanted lands killing the occulus and goblins, but it was not easy. My build had maxed sneak skills (although no HiPS). I would sneak attack the occulus and with the element of surprise (i.e. closing on them without being zapped too much), I could generally kill them in about a round and a half. I died a number of times doing this, but it was possible.
I have other buffing builds that can grind in the enchanted lands using an entirely different strategy. It turns out that if you do high damage with a range weapon, you can typically kill them before they can get into range to hurt you. Often, these builds find it easier to grind in the EL than my sneaky fighter.
I think that the biggest problem for fighters and rogues here is the disparity in their attacks and AC compared to buffing builds. My level 30 DEX fighter has an AC around 54 when self-buffed. My level 30 cleric build has an AC of 70 when buffed. The fighter has a first attack AB around 52. The cleric has one around 61. The disparity in the magic abilities between the two accounts for why the cleric is so much more viable than the fighter. The cleric also does more elemental damage with each blow that he lands. I cannot think of a single statistic that favors the fighter in a comparison between the two builds with the equipment that is currently available. Normally, when you compare builds, there are trade-offs that favor one build over the other for different tasks. In this case, the cleric is superior in every respect. I also would like to add that my fighter build is not a slouch. I have the same build on a high magic world, and in many situations it does the most damage per round of any of my builds (a kaze beats it in a few situations).
Mirh is supposed to scale, but it breaks down badly in epic. My fighter cannot go in there at all because virtually every attack against him only misses on a 1 for the first half of rounds. He does not hit quite as often. My cleric build in contrast can solo there (although he was sort of designed with that in mind).
The types of monsters that favor fighters tend to have high hit points, lowish AC, and the ability to bypass magical defenses (both for to hit and damage purposes).
Rogue builds are helped by creatures that lose a lot of AC when caught flat footed and that are vulnerable to critical hits. It would be nice to be able to play a rogue. I do have a level 21 character that has 10 levels of rogue. He would be pretty fun if I could land more hits when sneak attacking.
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Post by Loudent2 on Jul 16, 2009 18:30:43 GMT -5
traps that dispel buffs are already in a few dungeons. Mirh comes to mind although that's not exactly a fighter haven either.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 16, 2009 19:13:45 GMT -5
Hmm. Maybe we need some higher magical weapons that only fighters can get. Perhaps some that absolutely cannot be used if you have Cleric levels, or some that require rogue and/or fighter levels to use.
Just some thoughts. These things are pretty easy to put in.
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Post by Beldar on Jul 16, 2009 19:49:01 GMT -5
If the weapons are powerful enough, the clerics fall behind. Greater magic weapon doesn't stack with the enchantment on the weapon. One of the main ways that casters get ahead here is their ability to "temporarily" (long duration) enchant their own weapons. With the runes currently available, you can only make a single +5 item (typically armor for a fighter). The caster can make a +5 shield and use greater magic weapon and magical vestment to make +5 armor and weapons. With large amounts of elemental damage, the melee specialists start to do more damage than clerics due to feats like the weapon focus line and weapon master feats.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 16, 2009 19:54:26 GMT -5
Why does the answer to everything always have to be "give us more betta itemz"?
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Post by Beldar on Jul 16, 2009 20:02:06 GMT -5
Cause more betta itemz = greater parity between builds. I haven't seen any other successful way of addressing the problem. Of course the reason it works is because it flattens out the differences between the builds - the items matter more than the character building skills. If other methods of parity can be achieved, then I am fine with that. I just have seen the item route work. Better builds will still be better, but at least every build might be useful in epic levels.
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Post by Loudent2 on Jul 16, 2009 20:25:16 GMT -5
Why does the answer to everything always have to be "give us more betta itemz"? All of life is about aquiring better loot. You should have seen the mob that dropped the LDoA server! Right now I'm raiding the "Loudent2's Free time" Instance for the upgrade.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 16, 2009 23:00:15 GMT -5
Well, for example:
Short Sword / Kukri / Dagger / etc.
+7 Keen 2d6 Acid
Not saying this exactly, but something like this would be something only a dex type fighter, rogue, swashbuckler, etc., would use. This offers more reason to play a rogue or something while it does not enhance other builds that currently rock here.
See what I mean?
Not just weapons, but items in general.
Amulet : +4 Dex, -2 Str
Leather Armor : + 4 AC, +20 to hide, Cast Spell Cat's Grace (17) 3 / Day
You get the point.
There are also merchant options that can be implemented that make other classes relevant too. Unfortunately, this does mean that more, different, and class specific / unique type gear must be put in. I know we can come up with a script that combines different magical values that detects class and level.
Just saying. There are ways to make things like loot more creative and keep meaning something to the players that offer the viability of more diverse played classes.
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Post by Kieron on Jul 16, 2009 23:04:15 GMT -5
As for areas. There must be some different areas that are simply not doable unless you have rogue levels. If you want to make a rogue relevant, make it necessary. This is a challenging task, and I have spent many hours on many tries for different areas to make people truly love playing a rogue. I promised that if I became staff I would make rogues relevant here, and dang it, I will. These things take time and lots of community ideas.
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Post by Beldar on Jul 16, 2009 23:47:34 GMT -5
I concede that it is possible to make areas specific to a particular class, but it doesn't seem like the most efficient use of the scarcest resource on the server - builder time. I would point out a couple of things about your proposed items (I realize they are just exemplars). Unless your dex ammy stacks with gloves (dex gloves +10 on my dex builds), it won't get used. Leather armor is only useful for a very small subset of stealth builds - most have more than a +8 dex bonus rendering leather inferior to clothing. I don't mind helping make items, but I burn most of my free time playing . I like the crafting system - we currently have only minimal crafting. The SoZ crafting lets you guys have some control over what can come into the server.
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Post by Loudent2 on Jul 17, 2009 0:46:06 GMT -5
Kieron,
In the past I've tried to avoid creating areas catering to specific classes but I don't have a philisophical objection to it, just didn;t have the time.
What I'd love to see is a series of areas tied to specific classes. Each requiring the special skills those classes bring to the table and each tied with a class specific achievement quest. That would be pretty cool. Starting with rogue would work as well.
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Post by nicethugbert on Jul 17, 2009 4:15:26 GMT -5
Why does the answer to everything always have to be "give us more betta itemz"? All of life is about aquiring better loot. You should have seen the mob that dropped the LDoA server! Right now I'm raiding the "Loudent2's Free time" Instance for the upgrade. Hehe, which makes Short Sword / Kukri / Dagger / etc. +7 Keen 2d6 Acid look puny.
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