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Post by Loudent2 on Feb 18, 2009 23:17:58 GMT -5
PnP has a number of high bab, full/near-full progression prestige classes. That's not to mention the fact that there is no class limit and you can splash a ton of classes for just that first level on the classes with full bab and mixed casting (usually getting +1 BAB, +1 spell level such as Dragon Slayer). PnP generally has a DM who has to be sold on prestige classes. A DM can also tailor an adventure to his relatively small group. Combat is also at 1/10th the frequency that we have here.
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Post by Kaedrin on Feb 19, 2009 13:14:28 GMT -5
This prc really only affects epic levels and was meant for single player (though you can easily use it as epic levels for EK). If a MP server uses it, good for them. If not, good for them. Really, I don't care either way. It's done and added. There are worse classes in pnp and the pack and there are better ones.
Divine Power and the full progression classes that actually add class abilities (stormlord, doomguide, etc) make it a niche prc for most builds. Even for Arcanes there are better builds than 6 Sorc/4 Fighter/10 EK/10 KoT. Warlocks lose their class ability progression for a few points higher BAB and their primary offense is a touch attack. Bards get more bang for the buck out of the bardic prcs.
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Post by mammothtruk on Feb 19, 2009 15:42:29 GMT -5
I like options. Open and free. If you have one power class you should have all. And WARLOCK needs LOVE.
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Post by cosper1234 on Feb 19, 2009 16:15:35 GMT -5
Fist of Raziel (9/10, Divine) (very easy to get in to) Swanmay (9/10, Any) Gray Hand Enforcer (4/5, Any) Abjurant Champion (5/5, Arcane) Windwalker (10/10, Divine) Verdant Lord (10/10, Any) Jade Phoenix Mage (8/10, Arcane) Ruby Knight Vindicator (8/10, Divine) Knight Phantom (9/10, Arcane) Cyran Avenger (4/5, Any) Deadgrim (4/5, Any) Are these PrCs you are implimenting soon or something? I couldn't find them on your page. I still can't find these. I believe them to be pertinent to the conversation since the issue is what is active in this PW and what isn't. Are these to come in future Kaedrin packs or something?
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Post by Loudent2 on Feb 19, 2009 16:17:14 GMT -5
Divine Power and the full progression classes that actually add class abilities (stormlord, doomguide, etc) make it a niche prc for most builds. I agree that there are better divine PRCs. (certainly ones that I would choose over KoT). However it is in THAT context that the KoT becomes questionable. You take your divine caster class to qualify for whatever, then you take 10 levels of that and lose between 3-5 caster levels (which can be made up for with practiced spellcaster). The choice now is to progress as a spellcaster and retain full caster levels, or switch to another PRC and lose another 3-5 caster levels (which cannot fully be mitigated). The caster levels DO matter. Spell resistance will eventually be fixed (either by Kaedrin or by Obsidian) and caster levels are the key to overcoming it. So do you risk losing some caster levels in exchange for BAB? With KoT you don't have to choose. 12 cleric/10 whatever/8 KoT is full 30 spell caster (29 for a 5/10 class) 27 BAB (max attacks) Although I have to admit, it would be interesting to see a sacred fist build with the class (11 monk/1cleric/10(9) sacred Fist/9{10) KoT. Again 27 BAB (with monk Flury..many, many attacks). full level 9 spell-casting abiltiies. Warlocks do need PRC love, but (and this is something I might do either way), did you know that all the feats needed to support warlocks as eldritch knigths already exist? All we have to do is put the warlock in as a requirement and he can advance as an EK. I'lll look into enabling this feature. Again, this is not written in stone and I'm open to being persuaded.
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Post by shoujo on Feb 19, 2009 16:37:24 GMT -5
Lou, what about just nerfing its caster level if it bothers you so much? 9/10 would put it on par with an EK. It has crappier pre-reqs, but better HP. The KoT'd be like a gimped KP.
As for caster levels, they'll only matter for a cleric once bosses and mobs start using mords regularly. Otherwise you just need to hit 24 after practiced caster. Nuking is usually a waste of time anyway.
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Post by Beldar on Feb 19, 2009 19:02:27 GMT -5
Okay, I have added a poll on the issue.
I remember that Fist of Raziel was almost done (or maybe on the going to do next list?) at some point, but Kaedrin pulled it for some reason.
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Post by mammothtruk on Mar 3, 2009 0:11:20 GMT -5
more votes please
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Post by yyrkoonstyphoon on Mar 5, 2009 7:57:26 GMT -5
I think the debate of balance gets thrown out the window once PRC is implemented on any PW. The diversity among builds is so great, you cannot make something challenging to all builds. You will have mobs that rage vs certain builds and are pushovers to another and vice versa. When we implemented PRC in NwN1, we decided to build to a standard of difficulty and let the uber build be uber and the weaker builds have one hell of a challenge... and this comes down to personal player choice. It is like the person that plays a game on easy, then medium, then hard compared to the person that puts it to impossible the first time they fire up a game. A player is going to play an uber ultra tweekmaster build and rage though most stuff... chances are they get bored sooner or later and then diversify to a more interesting build. experimenting and such.
But the main thing is player choice. I think the variety of choices is a major strength of this server, so I vote to implement it and let people choose. I cannot say I will run out and make one, but i know my son will love this PRC. The floodgates have already been opened, i see no reason to scrutinize a little more water going under the bridge.
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Post by wettshoes on Mar 5, 2009 14:32:21 GMT -5
Good points yyrkoonstyphoon. I was on the fence but you have persuaded me to vote yes
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Post by nicethugbert on Mar 5, 2009 15:59:17 GMT -5
I think Lou should do what he wants and after that we can complain about it. He has a plan and it's his server. So, it's only fair to work off his plan, but, we don't really know what his plan is very well. I really doubt y'all change your opinion on other servers. The result is a crowd of people traveling around server space opining it all into uniformity. If there is one thing I really like about server space is diversity and I see you guys killing it with your full throttle "MORE POWAH" mentality.
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Post by yyrkoonstyphoon on Mar 5, 2009 16:09:24 GMT -5
Again, this is not written in stone and I'm open to being persuaded. Seems like he is asking our opinion to me. Yes, it is his server and he can do as he wishes, but I really do not see the rest of your posts validity. To say let players choose is different than what you assume, that if this class is implemented, then everyone will play it, or it seems that way. Prc is full of over the top classes. What is it to add one more? That was my point. I do not see how this is all that powerful even as a cleric. you can take war priest and proficient caster and have almost the same effect, except you get all the war priest abilities too. Are you saying the 2 caster levels on a high lvl cleric is more powerful than all the combined war priest powers? a lvl 26 caster cleric is marginally better than a lvl 24 caster cleric.
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Post by nicethugbert on Mar 6, 2009 17:26:40 GMT -5
Prc is full of over the top classes. What is it to add one more? That was my point. This a slippery slope. That was my point, among others.
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Post by mammothtruk on Mar 6, 2009 18:14:40 GMT -5
d**n I think we slipped down the slope withthe swiftblade
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Post by cosper123 on Mar 6, 2009 20:00:15 GMT -5
Not only that, but the slippery slope argument is one of the biggest logical fallacies. Swiftblade pretty much negates what wasn't a valid argument. "Are you saying the 2 caster levels on a high lvl cleric is more powerful than all the combined war priest powers?" I would...but then again, never been much of a fan of the warpriest
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