[Build] Need mage advice

[cosper123]

Figured I'd get advice *BEFORE* starting this time around.

I wanted to build a Wiz12/Swiftblade 7/SD1/ASOC10 for a mage with full caster level after practiced caster (wizard). Decided to throw in Swiftblade for a bit of melee if needed, and SD for HIPs as I had it on a mage before and it sure was handy.

However, is it really worth it? Would I be better off with...say:

Sorc/Heartwarder/Swiftblade/Pal?

Thinking the Charisma boosts from HW would be nice, but are the Pal saves even worth it? Not really too much to apply it to here on this server from what I have noticed so far. Also concered with all the cool added spells Keadrin has added in that the limited spellbook of a Sorc may hinder me.

Or...go in a totally different direction from either of these? Not really looking for a Gish build, although I'd welcome more melee ability as long as I could still get full caster level of 30.

[Beldar]

I think you need to decide in advance, "am I a gish or am I a caster?".

If you are a caster, your first build is fine.

If you are a Gish, then your second build would be improved by substituting EK for Heartwarder (full bab, more hp, and 9/10 casting v. more charisma, 10/10 casting, low bab, and low hp). I have a Gish that is 4 Pali/6 sorc/10 EK/10 swb. She is an aasimar with divine might and divine shield. With her charisma, those feats provide a huge boost to her ac and damage, have reasonable duration, and she gets a good number of them per rest cycle. She only gets caster level 24, but it is not much of an issue because she primarily uses her casting for buffs. If Kaedrin implements knight phantom, her caster level could be 28 with KP replacing swb.

I am also working on a sorceror 10/HW 10/ ASoC 10. He should be a beast of an offensive caster with all of his elective feats spent on things like spell focus and penetration and other offensive capability boosters. I have only played him to level 8 to this point, but he worked well in the trainer.

[Loudent2]

I have a build I'm currently playing with that is currently going Wiz/EK/ASoC/Swiftblade. It's very much a gish character but doesn't have to be. Ultimately I'm going to be (IIRC) Wiz 6/ EK 6/ASoC8/Swiftblade 10

Not sure why you would want HiPS as a mage, but it's your call.

Really if you want to do a mage build you may need to forgo some of the cooler Kaedrin classes, however his change to Palemaster giving 9/10 progression is practically insanity and the reserve feats will keep you casting so you never feel like you're not contributing.

ASoC 7 is almost a requirement.

Red Wizard of they makes an *excellent* necormancer. I had a mage10/RWoT10 in NWN1 that was casting save or die spells with a mid 30s DC. With what NWN2, kaedrin's work and this PW has to offer I bet you could get that into the 40s.....imagine, wail of the banshee with a 40 DC.....mwahhhahahah. Heck, drop in 7 level sof ASoC and 8 of palemaster (wiz 5/RWoT10/ASoC7/PM8) and you got yourself a tasty little morsel there.

[Beldar]

Lou didn't even mention the DC for the epic spells. My level 24 sorceror regularly turns more than 2/3 of the skeletons she faces into chickens. She also eats a ton of orcs in the battlefield with vampire feast. A RWoT necromancer could probably get a DC in the upper 40s for vampire feast with the right feats. Hmmm...

[Loudent2]

Jan 7, 2009 18:32:46 GMT -5 Beldar said:

a DC in the upper 40s for vampire feast with the right feats. Hmmm...

I know, every time I think about it I do the same thing.

If only I didn't already have 100 characters....still a friend is starting up again and he might need some companionship.....

[cosper123]

I've found HIPs to be a life saver in the mage I played earlier as there is no casting time or concentration check to worry about (vs. ereathralness sp?) Questioning it here because that build was on a pvp heavy server...but death here hurts so heck it's a toss up imo.

I can't stand to play a RWOT because I hate elmiminating spells. I could probably get away with taking out conjuration (but would lament not having greese)...but two entire schools? ouch lol.

Yeah forgot about Kaedrin's change to PM that changes things. And spaced on EK as well.

Wiz6/Swiftblade 7/EK 10/ASOC 7 would give me full casting level with prac spellcaster and somewhat decent melee for things like gollums. And Wiz6/Swiftblade 7/PM 10/ASOC 7 would be nice since I'm essentially aiming for full caster level anyhow. I mean, assuming that works out on paper. I don't find that stuff to come too easy though so I'd rather hash out a general idea first though.

Swiftblade really does lose a good deal of it's gleam though on a full caster. On the other hand haste giving ya extra speed and the extra AC isn't bad.

Does anyone think I'd need persistent spell at all if I had Swiftblade? Extended haste would be good enough (if not better), and with the buff wand here persistent spells and the high slots they take up don't really seem that needed.

[cosper123]

Also, Kaedrin you need to chill out for awhile you are really making this difficult

Hey does the AC gain from palemaster stack with the nat ac necklace and the AC boost of the swiftblade?

[Loudent2]

Jan 7, 2009 19:00:10 GMT -5 cosper123 said:

I've found HIPs to be a life saver in the mage I played earlier as there is no casting time or concentration check to worry about (vs. ereathralness sp?) Questioning it here because that build was on a pvp heavy server...but death here hurts so heck it's a toss up imo.

You can persist displacement here. I think that's enough of a life-saver...I think the step to SD is a needless waste as it costs you a whole clss (you can only have 4)

I can't stand to play a RWOT because I hate elmiminating spells. I could probably get away with taking out conjuration (but would lament not having greese)...but two entire schools? ouch lol.

Ok......sshhhhhhhhhhhhhh....A little birdie once told me that all that RW does is elimiate "future" acquisition of prohibited schools.....so if you take it at....say 18 you could still gain all the spells you wanted and....welll.....I hate to say this but taking it at 6 and then using your rebuild character option after you gain some levels to take it at 18 the second time around.....well, that's not against the rules per-se.....

Of course I have to test this to make sure it's still true.

Wiz6/Swiftblade 7/EK 10/ASOC 7 would give me full casting level with prac spellcaster and somewhat decent melee for things like gollums.

Ok, couple of pointers with this since I've thought a lot about it:

ASoC -7. Why? ASoC 8 gives you a bonus to your saves and you do NOT lose out on AB for it since you gain ab every other level. EK, on the other hand only really gives you AB a touch more hp and different save progression...So drop the EK to 9 and bump ASoC to 8

now, EK 9 and swiftblade 7. EK both give the same HP, but SB also gives 2 high saves instead of 1 and levels 8 and 9 still progress caster level with only missing up. Plus you get tripe haste duration and all kinds if interesting bonuses. So I say drop EK to 6 and up SB to 10. You lose out on 1 caster level but that makes it a total of 4 (1 from EK, 3 for SB) which is, incidentally, just what PC makes up for.

And Wiz6/Swiftblade 7/PM 10/ASOC 7 would be nice since I'm essentially aiming for full caster level anyhow. I mean, assuming that works out on paper. I don't find that stuff to come too easy though so I'd rather hash out a general idea first though.

For a full caster build I would probably forgo the SB and just persist haste and displacement. I think for a dedicated caster the wiz bonuses every 5 levels is better than what a few levels of SB would offer.

Swiftblade really does lose a good deal of it's gleam though on a full caster. On the other hand haste giving ya extra speed and the extra AC isn't bad.

I don't know if it's faster but you can persist Exp retreat.

Does anyone think I'd need persistent spell at all if I had Swiftblade? Extended haste would be good enough (if not better), and with the buff wand here persistent spells and the high slots they take up don't really seem that needed.

With SB, it really doesn't seem like it would be needed. I think I took it anyway, but there's nothing really worth persisting (for my arcane guy at any rate).

[shoujo]

Saves - I've found saves to be pretty worthless. Most of the time, you should be immune to whatever a spell/trap does.

Persistent Spell - Unnecessary for swiftblade haste, but persistent weapon of energy isn't too shabby. Persistent displacement on an ally would be appreciated too. The haste goodies won't apply to your allies either, so that's something else to consider.

Palemaster AC - It stacks with natural AC gear and also applies when you shift. Horn devil can get some pretty nice AC with PM levels. A horndevil monk/wizard/PM/ASoC would have decent AC and casting (20 int/18 wis of course). Unless something's been changed, nat AC will stack with PM AC. PMs and RDDs get the good kind of AC.

RWoT - Just take it after you've got all the spells you want. You can still cast those spells, you just won't be able to learn anymore spells from your prohibited school. When I tested it, the extra caster levels only worked with the school of specialization, so that kinda killed its appeal for me though. PM and heartwarders are far more attractive IMO.

Reserve feats - I wouldn't touch them. I've yet to test a mage that has excess feats and with shapechange + casting, anything you can kill with reserve feats you can kill by shifting or just using tensers. Though IMO, if it's worth hitting with reserve feats, you should just invis past it or herd and nuke because it's not going to be worth XP.

[Loudent2]

I'm not a fan of reserve feats, trust me.

The only reason to have them, IMO, is when you're partying with others and you just want something to do before unloading the big guns. You can expect a lot more instances in epic and spell conservation will be important.

[cosper123]

Wow thanks for the great advice guys. All sorts of things I never would have thought of.

[nicethugbert]

I have a Sun Elf wiz06/asoc01 with 20 int that I fast started and it is unplayable, for me at least. Cannot handle a mob. Needs to rest after every fight. She doesn't have a reserve feat because I wanted asoc ASAP. It's pretty much what I suspected. It's a lot more bullet proof than I suspected but still dies easy for one reason or another. Often runs out of firepower before the fight ends as so many slots are required for defense.

[Kaedrin]

If spell conservation is important (ie, rest restrictions are in place) then the value of reserve feats jumps up dramatically. They all ignore Spell Resistance as well. Some, like Clap of Thunder, are touch attack spells so that they gain the benefit of sneak dice. They also rarely allow saving throws.

Healing Touch, even with the caps, is one of the best feats a divine character can take. Free healing allowing you to load up on buffs/combat spells (as well as use spontaneous heals).

Edit: As things stand, I won't be doing Knight Phantom anytime soon. The Knight of Tierdrial will also be turned off for MP by default.

[cosper123]

Ok based on the advice above I'm gonna go:

W7/Monk 3/PM10/ASOC10

The Monk will give me deflect arrows, monk speed, still mind, evasion, and wis bonus to ac. Seems like a worthy investment to me. Now I just need to figure out what race.

Looks like Drow is my best bet unless anyone has any better ideas. I'd do deep gnome but want the monk levels about halfway through and LA + multiclass pen is too severe for me.

[cytoc]

I love HiPs on mages. It gives you a good escape, without a cooldown that is uninterruptable. As a mage, you can probably cross-class hide and move silently due to your high int. Otherwise they're class skills for palemaster...

Reserve feats are decent when starting, but by level 5 (when you first get fireburst) they aren't really necessary for leveling.

Frost master turns cold damage into magic damage. I'm not sure how the epic mobs are going to go for magic damage resistance vs. frost damage resistance, but you may want to consider that before investing in this class (especially now that pale master gives you better casting progression)

I'm not sure about red wizard. My current mage is a red wizard), as has been mentioned, grabbing red wizard after you have learnt all the spells from the 2nd forbidden class doesn't prevent you casting those spells). I prefer a +2 int race instead, seeing as red wizard is limited to human (and you're not generally too feat starved in a wizard).


So I'm slowly in the process of replacing my current mage (wizard, RWoT, SD, PM) because I want ASoC, pretty much solely for empowered frost ray. So basically, I would recommend SD as an option (even in group play it is a very simple way to drop aggro), I also highly recommend ASoC and then take it from there (probably PM for hide / move silently if you go SD)...
In the case of my new mage I've chosen to go for Wiz/ASoC/SD/Rogue, it makes it a little slow early on (fewer spell slots than a pure caster), but by the time you hit level 8-ish you have HiPs to get out of sticky situations and by mid-teens you're not really noticing much of a difference at all vs. a pure caster, and practiced spell caster covers your caster level for SR. And you get a much better skill set for all that int.

@ NTB... grab mage armour, shield, fireburst, exp. retreat and the DR 5/- spell (I'm having a mental blank at the moment... is it lesser ethereal visage or something like that...). Rod your exp. retreat, AC buffs and DR 5/- spell, run around and group up 6-12 chodes / chode holers then it takes 3 shots of fireburst to drop them all. Rinse and repeat. It isn't the most exciting play style, but it will net you 100-200 exp every rest.