[BUILD] Is this non-caster 2wf build viable?

[jade]

I'm seeking some advice on whether the build below will be viable at higher levels and if it could be improved (rather than finding out the hard way that it won't cut it/could have been done better)
Thanks!

RDD 10/Paladin 9/COW 10/Avenger 1
Yuan-ti, Lawful Good

Starting Stats
Str 15 (+8 RDD, +3 stats)
Int 12 (+2 RDD)
Dex 18 (+1 stat)
Cha 18 (+3 stats, +2 RDD)
Wis 8
Con 10 (+2 RDD)

1 Pal, feat: Dodge, bonus feats: smite evil
2 Pal, bonus feats: divine grace & lay on hands
3 Pal, feat: Combat Expertise, bonus feats: aura of courage & divine health
4 Pal, STAT: STR (16), bonus feat: turn undead
5 Pal
6 Pal, feat: Weapon Focus: long sword, bonus feat: remove disease
7 Pal
8 COW bonus feats: touch of the wild & 2wf (??), STAT: STR (17)
9 COW bonus feat: elegant strike, feat: divine might
10 COW superior defense +1
11 COW bonus feat: imp 2wf
12 COW feat: oversized 2wf, STAT: CHA (19), bonus feat: dash
13 COW superior defense +2
14 Avenger
15 RDD natural AC +1, feat: 2 wep defense
16 RDD +2 STR (19) STAT: CHA (20)
17 RDD
18 RDD +2 STR (21), natural AC +2, feat: toughness
19 COW bonus feat: imp 2 wep defense
20 COW, STAT: CHA (21), bonus feat: wrath of the wild
21 COW, feat: epic divine might
22 COW, bonus feat: extra wrath of the wild I, superior defense +3
23 RDD, feat: epic toughness, bonus feat: blind fight
24 RDD, STAT: dex (19), CON +2
25 RDD, feat: greater 2wf, natural AC +3
26 RDD, INT +2
27 RDD, feat: greater 2wep defense
28 RDD, +4 STR (25), +2 CHA (23), natural AC +4, bonus immunities, STAT: STR (26)
29 Paladin, feat: epic resilience?
30 Paladin

[Beldar]

I think this build would be playable, but it doesn't seem optimized for final performance. I would try to shift more points into charisma to take bigger advantage of the EDM. The initial strength points make low level play easier, but might be better spent on charisma. You might consider aiming for a final strength of 21 (minimum to qualify for EDM) and relying on exclusively on RDD to get there. You could then spend 1 to boost dex to the 19 you need and the remaining 6 on charisma. More charisma will also further improve your saves (not that they aren't already good) and smite evils.

The feat choices look pretty good, but it seems like a shame that we cannot work in the 2wf and 2wd line earlier. Greater 2wd is pretty helpful.

[shoujo]

Think your AB's gonna be a bit of an issue because your stats are all over the place. My RDD with EDM had 26 STR, wasn't dual wielding (2 more AB), and had far more AB buffs and still had trouble landing a lot of hits until her late teens.

AC will also be an issue for a while because you won't be able to get expertise until you hit RDD 8 and you'll be missing the TWD line. Different story if you're twinked


Avenger - Unless you absolutely have to have paladin levels, I don't think avenger is a good choice. If all you want is to qualify for RDD, sorc would be a better option. It gets you +4 AC sorc bracers, immunity to mind spells by summoning your beetle familiar which'll also get you extra HP/level. Faster RDD levels mean you'll get combat expertise and CotW earlier. If you have to use the avenger, it'd make more sense to go Pal 7/avenger 3. Least that gets you an extra sneak attack.


Paladin/Avenger vs Bard/Blackguard - I'm assuming your goal is to 1) dual wield 2) use EDM. If that's the case, a bard/BG will be easier to play, get you most of what you want, and have better stats overall. Bard gets costs you 2 BAB which you get back with a +2 AB/dmg song, +1 from song of the heart, +1 from inspirational boost, +2 from battledancer, and +2 from heroism. You also get sonic weapon and mirror image to pump up your defense and haste/displacement in a pinch. You can also enter RDD faster and get that 14 INT for extra skill points.

Blackguard gets you the martial weapon and heavy armor profs you need to qualify for CotW and the turn undead you need for EDM.


Feats - I'd try to squeeze Divine Shield in there. Been seriously useful for my RDD/EDM.

Epic Resilience can be ditched. It only helps you 5% of the time since you have high saves. Even then, auto failure is only bad vs death and petrification. Steadfast Determination would be a cheaper alternative (2 feats vs 3 feats).

[dordon]

You're also missing the power attack pre-req for divine might. The biggest problem that I see for non-caster dual wielders is where to spend your runes. You probably want them on your weapons to get a reasonable AB, but that doesn't leave you too many options for armor AC. Your choices are basically either +5 mage robes, +4 sorc bracers, +3 paladin armor or I think there's +2 armor from BGH now? Dual wielders already have some tough choices to make, and a str based dual wielder makes it even harder.

I'd be tempted to focus more on dex so you could also get PTWF and use robes. RDD will give you enough to qualify for EDM pretty easily. Bard opens up UMD as a class skill so that you can use some of the other robes more easily, though any char with enough cha for EDM can probably get by with cross-class UMD. You'd have the same damage with COW in there, but better AC.

[Loudent2]

I've been trying to work out a dual wielder myself.

One can go from 1-20 as a straight fighter and just about pick up every weapon specific feat (weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon spec, greater weapon spec. improved critica/powercritical (probably go without improved crit). It's very difficult to fit in the TWF feats as well (TWF, ITWF, TWD, ITWD, GTWF etc etc).

I tried playing around with a fighter/tempest/WM but I was so feat starved I was well into epic and still taking basic feats.

I'm still tinkering around looking for a viable build. The issue at hand is Feats and AC.

[Beldar]

Well, here is one possible solution:
ldoamb.proboards101.com/index.cgi?board=tavern&action=display&thread=837

As far as rune allocation, I can think of two solutions:
1. Have a monk level and get a monk robe (monk level now required to get the quest so UMD is not enough). This frees runes for the weapons.
2. Wield a rapier (finesseable and a +2 rapier is a reliable drop). Hayden uses 2 rapiers. He has +5 clothing (6 runes: 4 enchant and 2 enchant increase). He put his last enchant rune on his second rapier making it +2.

@lou:
Power critical is a crappy feat - a 20% increase in the chance that your critical hit will be confirmed? Lots of things are crit immune. There are so many more useful feats (knockdown lets you beat on mages while they are prevented from casting). You could save fighter levels for epic where there are even more juicy feats. Two weapon fighters actually benefit the most from improved critical (both weapons get enhanced range). However, if you use rapiers, your Bez rapier is keen so it lessens the value of the feat.

[Kaedrin]

Ranger 21/ SL 9 with Monkey Grip, Oversized, and Bane of Enemies
Fig 8/ Temp 5/ CotW 10/ AK 7
Swash 3/Rog 13/CotW 9/Temp 5

Not melee only:
Bard 12/ CotW 6/ Rog 2/ CL 10
Cle 10/SL 10/Temp 5/Mast Rad 5
Bard 8/ Rog 2/ CL 10/ Swift 10
Bard 11/ RDD 10/ BG 4/ Temp 5

Future (and fave)
Pal 9 / CoSF 10/ Temp 5/ CotW 6

[Loudent2]

Jan 7, 2009 14:30:04 GMT -5 Beldar said:

@lou:
Power critical is a crappy feat - a 20% increase in the chance that your critical hit will be confirmed? Lots of things are crit immune.

Let's see, undead and golems. Maybe 10% of the total mob population.

There are so many more useful feats (knockdown lets you beat on mages while they are prevented from casting). You could save fighter levels for epic where there are even more juicy feats. Two weapon fighters actually benefit the most from improved critical (both weapons get enhanced range). However, if you use rapiers, your Bez rapier is keen so it lessens the value of the feat.

Knockdown is a waste unless you're going to pick up the improved version. Everyone and their mother has a ring of the ram.

Improved crit is a tricky call. the thing is, the threat range only matters if you can hit them in that range. i.e. if you need a 17 or better to hit something then a crit range of 12-20 isn't of full use. And, quite frankly, if you can consistantly hit something on a 12 then it's probably weak enough that you don't really need the criticals.

power crit, on the other hand, can really be useful across all ranges. I generally pick up up for weapons that will crit more consistnatly (with a wider threat range) but I'll take above improved crit and knockdown any day.

[/quote]

[Beldar]

Among my many characters, I think I have found about 4 rings of ram. Casters with living undeath and pale masters are also crit immune. Most mages do not require improved kd and kd is a prereq to taking improved kd (If I take kd, I usually take the second one). Other feats I would favor over power critical include expertise, improved expertise, feint (if you have the bluff, it strips opponent ac), able learner (for some builds - those that need to pump bluff or taunt when taking classes that don't get it as a class skill), power attack (if you can only hit on a 20, you might as well do more damage on those rare hits), luck of heroes (has to be taken at level 1 so you have to be planning ahead), and a bunch of epic feats. I am probably forgetting some other feats I would rather have, but to some extent the whole issue is a question of taste and play style. Sure if I am playing a weapon master, I'll take power crit because I am generally aiming for as many criticals as possible. It is also a good feat for my mighty smitey build (max smites with a scythe for 4x fun - the more times I can land that critical smite, the better).

You are right of course about improved crit not mattering if you can't hit on your expanded range, but often improved crit isn't lowering your threat range to 12 but improving it from 19-20 to 17-20 or from 20 to 19-20. Even a rapier only expands to 15-20 with improved critical. If you are only hitting on 20, then improved critical is immaterial (but you should be using improved power attack). Of course 20 only also means that the opponent better be hitting you on 20 only also or you should have a sufficiently large hit point advantage to statistically beat him. Hayden has a first AB of 41 (iirc) which means that he would hit a skeleton with a 15 so the improved critical would help if the skeleton were not crit immune (but still, a skeleton's ac might be a decent baseline for an epic opponent).

Against the hypothetical crit vulnerable AC 53 opponent, Hayden has a 9% chance of landing a critical (30% * 30%). If he takes power critical, that improves to 15% (30% * 50%). The change is not insignificant, but I am not certain that it is the best use of a feat. His average damage could easily be better with a successful feint (hard to predict how much because of the myriad possible ways the 53 AC can be achieved), but he does have 10 attacks / round so a successful feint really allows the possibility of a great deal more damage. For instance, Hayden himself loses around 20 AC if he is caught flat footed (a major weakness of that build).