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Post by Kaedrin on May 16, 2009 14:14:06 GMT -5
Monster Manual 2 has a new race that has been brought up and I'm on the fence (leaning to no) about adding it due to balance issues.
Zenythri (lawful plancetouched race)
+1 ECL
5 Resist to Sonic, Fire, and Electricity
+2 Str, Dex, Wis
-2 Cha
Martial Weapon Proficiency (like all other planetouched/outsiders which the Aasimar/Tiefling should get)
1/day True Strike
Favored Class: Monk
Thoughts?
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Post by mammothtruk on May 16, 2009 15:38:28 GMT -5
looks like a lawful version of the Aasimar/Tiefling to me. And to balance out this shouldnt there be a chaotic bend race with a favored class reflecting that?
And 1/day true strike? talk about useless. Sure its nice if you had a way to get more uses. or a True Strike 1/1minute or something.
I dont see it as any more powerful than the plane touched races already in unless you added the weap prof to it then its +2 ECL.
Im all for new races but maybe this one misses the mark if it doesnt have something that makes it different other than very limited true strike.
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Post by shoujo on May 16, 2009 15:49:01 GMT -5
It looks like a grey orc on crack to me. Better stat bonuses, less penalties, and a better proficiency by virtue of being an outsider. If you consider grey orcs to be balanced, then this one'll definitely be an issue, but if not should be fine.
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Post by Beldar on May 16, 2009 17:51:01 GMT -5
It looks more like an ECL 2 race to me. Nets +4 in stats which is the same as Drow. I guess it doesn't have SR like Drow or Yuan Ti. Favored class monk also allows for some interesting builds without an xp penalty. I would definitely make use of this race.
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Post by purtellfr on May 16, 2009 19:21:43 GMT -5
Same as MMT, looks like an Aasimar/Tiefling but with a slightly different flavor.
The more choices we get the better..
And it's Favored Class: Monk
Just my 2 cent..
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Post by nicethugbert on May 16, 2009 21:22:46 GMT -5
It looks like it'll be the preferred race for Kaze builds, which don't do so well on this server. Monks have a tough time here so this is welcome help for them. All they get is +1 AC over a Gray Orc depending on what armor is being worn. It's not nearly good enough to keep pace with shield users. Clerics already do well here. This is not going to make a big difference for them relative to Gray Orc. The powergamer in you may make you take it but it's not getting you to level 30 anytime sooner.
For str or dex builds you could compare it to a Wood Elf with an extra 2 wis points. It's not a bonus which is inline with str or dex based Wood Elf builds, except for ranger or monk. But, rangers and monks aren't so hot here either and you pay 1 ECL for an extra 2 wis points.
Str based fighter builds and str or wis based cleric builds have it good here. But, this race does not significantly improve what's currently available for those builds on this server. It just gives monks and rangers a little needed help.
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Post by wettshoes on May 17, 2009 22:14:01 GMT -5
1st off it be real nice to have a race with a Favored Class: Monk.
And I agree with Beldar/Shoujo. It definitely has more advantages then other plane-touched (and especially Grey Orc) but if you are worried about balance bump it to ECL 2 and it should be fine.
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Post by Beldar on May 18, 2009 8:27:37 GMT -5
Mostly, you can splash a level or two of monk for the +AC from wisdom without taking an xp penalty. I see this being advantageous for most DEX builds.
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Post by nicethugbert on May 18, 2009 11:06:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure it's worth ECL 2. Yuan-ti is ECL 2 but it gets SR and +1 AC. Deep Gnome is LA 3 and it gets SR and +5 AC. The wis bump will be small unless you use a wis ammy but that competes with natural AC ammy.
Dex builds already have a lot of important classes to try to squeeze in and they're feat starved. This is not going to make a better Kaze. The best Kaze is Yuan-ti or Deep Gnome and they have high LA and even XP penalty. And for what? The server does not have the gear to make Kazes shine, no?
[EDIT: Incidentally, with all the twinking possible here, would you want to have Kaze's shine even if it takes them 6 months to make 30? What happens when items get better and gold is more useful and you have an all to good farmer on the server?]
Just as there are no Deep Gnome, Half-orc, Gray Orc, Genasi, or Teifling EDM or Sorc builds, there will not be any Zenythri EDM or Sorc builds worth worrying about. That eliminates a large segment of the power builds.
As for PTWF+Epic Dodge+Epic Precision+Expose Weakness, there are cheaper solutions for that too. That's another power build not to worry about.
As for self concealment, I see no progress here with this race.
Pixie is the race to watch out for.
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Post by mammothtruk on May 18, 2009 12:46:50 GMT -5
yeah I think I would rather take a "splash" of deep gnome or YT for stats/ac than monk taking up lvls. And this Drow with SR being "near" or "almost" isnt anywhere near. Being the planetouched dont get the martial lets not even look at that. Just compare a 1/day power thats instant and has no duration, cant be recharged, or extended. Then compare the stats. I know an elf race thats got great stats, all day long powers, and no ECL. Grey Orcs arent as super as you make them out to be compared to.... Aasimar? Not all THAT different right?
Bottom line is D&D isnt balanced and wont ever be balanced. I can harp on its a party based game, but we know where that will go. And balance along with usefulness is in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by nicethugbert on May 18, 2009 14:56:26 GMT -5
yeah I think I would rather take a "splash" of deep gnome or YT for stats/ac than monk taking up lvls. WTF Oyster, WTF are you going on about? Ran out of fresh water? EDIT: Grey Orcs arent as super as you make them out to be compared to.... Aasimar? Gray Orcs make good str or wis based clerics or monks, a little better than Half-orc or Wood Elf maybe. Aasimars make good cha based builds such as EDM, src, or even feint builds. With -2 cha, Zenythri do not make good cha builds. How good are EDM or src builds on this server. From what I can tell, those are the top builds on PvP servers. I can't see Zenythri making a good EDM or src build anywhere unless there are +20 cha cloaks available. So, if Aasimar with it's LA 1 can make some of the top power builds and Zenythri deserves LA 2, then, shouldn't Aasimar deserve LA 2? But, then you could use Yuan-ti at LA 2 and get SR and +1 Nat AC. One of the top dex melee builds here would be Air Genasi fgt12/swa03/CotW10/{WM07 or Due 07 or IB05}. Zenythri would get an XP penalty with this build. I'm not sure that is worth the -2 cha, +2 str, +2 wis, +2 dex. You'll want to aim for Combat Insight as well as Insightful Strike and Elegant Strike, so +2 str is not so important here. You could make a Zenythri fgt12/mnk11/* but you'll make a better one with Yuan-ti or Deep Gnome. And, it's equipment dependence means it's a no go on this server. Everybody is focusing on the +2 str here. But str is not the point of a fgt12/mnk11/* build at all. The point is the power of 18 attacks per round with high magic. You could easily sabotage this by just eliminating magic Kamas. |
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Post by wettshoes on May 18, 2009 21:41:52 GMT -5
Mostly, you can splash a level or two of monk for the +AC from wisdom without taking an xp penalty. I see this being advantageous for most DEX builds. Bottom line is D&D isnt balanced and wont ever be balanced. I can harp on its a party based game, but we know where that will go. And balance along with usefulness is in the eye of the beholder. Agreed and Agreed. I can also think of alot of other divine caster wis builds too . . . shifter druid, Zen archer to name two. I too would end up using this race alot. Give me another option other then human if I want to avoid the xp pen and splash a lvl or two of monk. And yes it can be argued that Aasimar is slightly superior to the other current planetouched races. I remember this discussion on another server, some felt it was closer to ECL 2 than 1. But Drow has more advantages so what does that make Aasimar? ECL 1.5 ?  It could also be argued that Yuan-Ti is slightly better then drow - so would it be more accurate to say it should ECL 2.5? You get my drift . . . . Anyway, I think if you are going to be nit-picky about it Zenythri probably would fall out somewhere between ECL 1 and 2 but hey, either way I think it would be a nice addition. Rather see it as ECL 2 then not at all . . . |
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Post by nicethugbert on May 18, 2009 23:46:04 GMT -5
You guys acknowlege that ECL is inadequate, so how do you assign an ECL to a race? Every race is better at some builds than at others. I just don't see anybody expressing a complete vision. I'm still waiting to see this all powerful monk splash that warrants LA increases. I have shown that Zenythri does not improve upon these ultra-synergistic builds with multiple power gamer favored feats.
You could monk splash any of the following builds and not get an XP penalty:
Any: Human, Half-Elf, or Half-Drow
Cleric: Gray Orc
Fighter: Genasi or Dwarf
Paladin: Aasimar
Ranger: Wood Elf or Yuan-ti
Rogue: Halfling, Teifling, or Deep Gnome
Wizard: Moon Elf, Sun Elf, or Drow
Sorcerer: Wild Elf
How about rogue, bard, barbarian, or cleric splashes?
Maybe Humans and Half Elves should have the highest ECL? Especially so we don't have everybody playing them?
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Post by mammothtruk on May 19, 2009 16:16:44 GMT -5
d**n humans are uber powerful! one feat extra? 4+1/level skill points? no multiclass issue? thats ECL +2 at least!
There is no complete vision that can yay or nay the race. Anything can be made into something worth playing. And why should monk have a favored race? So what if someone wants to play a "splashed" monk. Mo power to them.
ECL is completely unable to coop with the races that came after it. there are so many races that according to the ECL charts boarder +3 ECL but are considered +2 its not funny. Also in Nw2 there is no ECL = LA + HD so there is nothing that doesnt start out as just a class. Lots and lots and lots of races there for cant be created in Nw2 without modifications to take their HD away and thus all the feats, skills, and bonuses they get with them. Then to reapply those you would have to create base classes that work like PrCs and have to be taken first for that race to be played.
Its a headache that isnt worth having. The race isnt OP'd anymore than the standard Nw2 races and in PnP terms its nothing overly special.
I give it a thumbs up.
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Post by Kaedrin on May 22, 2009 19:05:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to skip the race for now and if it does get added in the future, it will be turned off for Multiplayer.
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It could also be argued that Yuan-Ti is slightly better then drow - so would it be more accurate to say it should ECL 2.5? You get my drift . . . .